Investing Locally and Globally | with Davelle Morrison | Broker

This episode gives consumers and agents a clear look at what it really takes to invest beyond Toronto, whether in Ontario’s secondary markets or internationally in places like Barbados. It breaks down why people look outside the GTA, how to spot strong opportunities, what changes in the buying process, and the key mistakes to avoid.

For consumers, the goal is to build confidence in exploring new markets. For agents, it’s about strengthening their ability to guide clients and evaluate opportunities.

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Transcript

Intro to Davelle

Christan Bosley 0:00

Ready to level up your investing? Davelle Morrison talks about what truly pays off when you buy outside Toronto or even outside the country. This episode might just redirect your entire strategy and show you why the smartest opportunities are miles or even oceans away. For nearly a century, Bosley has been helping to shape the landscape of Canadian real estate. This podcast is an extension of that legacy, our way of staying connected to what matters most to you. Join us as we sit down with leading voices from across the industry and beyond to explore the ideas, trends, and stories that move real estate forward. Whether you're an agent, investor, homeowner, or just curious about the market, there's something here for you. Hello everyone, and welcome to Like a Bos, the podcast where we bring you real conversations with people shaping the real estate industry. I'm your host, Kristen Bosley, president and broker of record of Bosley Real Estate. Joining us today is Ms. Davelle Morrison. Thank you very much for joining us.

Davelle Morrison 1:05

Thank you so much for having me.

Christan Bosley 1:06

It's such a pleasure. You have the best voice for radio ever.

Davelle Morrison 1:11

Thank you. Hopefully that doesn't mean I have like a face for radio.

Christan Bosley 1:15

No, you have a beautiful face. It's perfect for television too, which of course you have been featured many times. Thank you. So I'm very privileged to have worked with you. You've been at Bosley for about 13 years now.

Davelle Morrison 1:26

Yeah, about that.

Christan Bosley 1:27

And when you first started, we probably started around the same time. I distinctly recall working at Merton Street, wondering where you got your very strong work ethic from, how I could learn from you. So thank you.

Davelle Morrison 1:38

It was just about put one foot in front of the other and just keep going. Yeah. Keep going. And that's it, really.

Christan Bosley 1:45

And you still do it exceptionally well. Thank you. You have set yourself apart, of course, obviously with your media training. We see you in the media a lot. You at one time had your own radio show, and you do an exceptional job with client education and your training and seminar. So that's an amazing opportunity to learn as well. Thank you. Thank you.

Davelle Morrison 2:04

Thanks. I mean, I really enjoy doing that kind of stuff. It's a lot of fun. It's probably because prior to being an agent, I worked in media in advertising and sponsorship sales. So I guess maybe because that's sort of my background, I sort of started doing that kind of stuff in my real estate business as well, too.

Christan Bosley 2:22

Yeah, and it transferred beautifully. It's very worked very well for you. Thank you. So I think one of the reasons we have you here today is kind of your side hustle, which I also believe you've been doing for some time, which is investing.

Davelle Morrison 2:36

Yes, absolutely. You know, it's funny, it's investing that actually brought me into becoming an agent. So I've been investing in real estate since 2008. And it was because I was doing that as my side hustle that, you know, when it I at some point I knew I was going to get let go from my previous media job, that I was like, you know, I've been doing this real estate thing on the side. I should probably start pursuing this full-time. And that's basically what led me to become an agent. It's one of the reasons why I have a lot of friends and family that work with me because they know I have an expertise as a landlord, as a real estate investor, as someone who's bought real estate with friends. They usually come to me with their questions.

Christan Bosley 3:14

Yeah. And it's nice to find a realtor who actually is understanding holistically of all of those different facets and believes in it so much that you do it yourself.

Davelle Morrison 3:23

Absolutely, for sure.

Christan Bosley 3:24

Right. And so not only do you invest in Toronto, you have expanded outside of Toronto and most recently outside of the country. So I'm really looking forward to getting into that. Sure. So tell me, what motivated you originally when you were investing to look beyond the city of Toronto for investment opportunities?

Davelle Morrison 3:42

You know, I think the same thing that motivates some people to, you know, buy a house outside of the GTA. It's just being able to afford it. So luckily, I luckily enough have a house in the city. And I did buy a duplex also in the city many, many years ago. And I've owned various condos in the city as well. But at some point when you want to expand your horizons and you're like, oh, Toronto's getting really expensive, you decide to look outside of the city. So for me, it was a matter of trying to figure out what is the best market outside of the city that seemed to make sense for me. Um, so I started off with buying a couple of places in Prince Edward County and I bought those with friends because I always like to tell people who want to get involved in investing, is that you don't always have all the money. And so sometimes when you don't have enough money, A, you go outside of the GTA, but B, you also decide to pool your money with friends and family to make it more affordable.

Christan Bosley 4:36

Okay, amazing. And so how did you choose Prince Edward County?

Davelle Morrison 4:40

You know, I had done, it's another side hustle. I did my yoga teacher training actually in Prince Edward County. Something you didn't know about. I did not know this. Yeah. So I did Blew my mind. Yeah, so I did my yoga teacher training there. I can't even remember how long ago I did it, maybe 15 or 17 years ago. Okay. So I got in the habit of driving out to the county and got to know some people there and really enjoyed it. So went for a couple of weekends with friends. We really enjoyed it. We loved it. And it was, hmm, real estate here is really cheap. So first I helped one of my friends buy an investment property there. And so we drove out there with his with like I connected him with an agent who works out there. And we drove around, took a look at properties, I gave him some advice. One of my big things as an investor is I like to make sure that you have at least two units available for rent on the same property. Okay. Because if you have just one property on one site, all of your eggs are in one basket. So it's nice to be able to have something else as well on the same property. So my friend bought a place there, and then probably a year later, I was able to assemble a group of friends and we were able to buy a place there.

Christan Bosley 5:50

Okay. And so fair to say that you chose a destination where you are happy to go and experience yourself.

Davelle Morrison 5:56

Yes, absolutely. And that was one of the nice things about it. It was nice owning a place where I could invent invite a bunch of friends for the weekend. And luckily, it was a sixplex that I co-owned with a couple of friends, so it slept a lot of people. Okay. So when the season wound down in Prince Edward County, and Prince Edward County is like high season from about May until about the end of October, even. So, you know, I'd pick a weekend in November and bring all of my friends down. So I think they loved it too. And I I certainly enjoyed being able to host, you know, 20 friends. I mean, when can you put all of your friends in a mini motel basically? Yeah. Where everybody gets their own room and suite. Like it was just, it was great. It was awesome.

Christan Bosley 6:40

It is awesome. Selfishly, I have stayed there because Deval was kind enough to allow me an opportunity to be there. It's an amazing spot.

Davelle Morrison 6:49

Thank you.

Christan Bosley 6:49

And um, I might dare add that you got in before Prince Edward County became Prince Edward County, right?

Davelle Morrison 6:55

Yes, absolutely. I mean, it's funny because I my friends and I, we just sold it this summer. Um, but it was great to be there, sort of at the height of everything and especially the of the height of short-term rentals. And for me, once I do something, I want to get involved in something. So I ended up with a couple of people. We actually formed an association out there for owners of short-term rentals. So we got very involved with speaking to council, speaking to mayor, to the mayor, making sure that the rules were going to go the way that the rest of the short-term rental investors needed them to go. So it was a great experience, and I got to know so many great people. And, you know, the interesting thing about investing in a small town is you get greater access to people in that particular town. Access that you would never get in Toronto. I mean, literally in my phone, I can text the mayor of Prince Edward County. Like that's insane. You wouldn't do that in Toronto. And so the nice thing about investing in smaller markets is that you can get really involved, really involved with council and making sure that your investment's going to go in the direction you need it to go in.

Christan Bosley 8:03

Yeah. And I can imagine that's been a huge benefit for your business too.

Davelle Morrison 8:06

Absolutely, for sure.

Christan Bosley 8:06

It's lots of learnings.

Ontario Regions Offering the Strongest Investment Opportunities Right Now

Davelle Morrison 8:08

Absolutely.

Christan Bosley 8:09

So if you were to take a look now outside of Toronto, uh, which Ontario regions really do you feel offer the greatest investment opportunities at the moment?

Davelle Morrison 8:19

Oh, geez, that's a tricky one. Well, I mean, anything outside of the GTA is cheap. Well, cheaper. At this moment, I should say.

Christan Bosley 8:27

For sure. Yeah. The markets, the external markets have taken a bit of a hit.

Davelle Morrison 8:30

Yeah. I mean, I think it's nice to be by the water. A lot of people, there's something about water that really draws people in. So if I look at a place like Coburg, one of the things that I like about that is that there's a via rail train that goes right there. It is on the water. There's other things to do. That's a market that looks really interesting to me. I love Niagara on the Lake, but it is expensive. And quite frankly, even Prince Edward County has become expensive, but there's still some affordable things in Prince Edward County as well. So I think it's really about trying to find those smaller markets that maybe people haven't hit yet. And it's a place that is realistic for you to visit. You know, I once checked out Sauble Beach because I'd gone with a bunch of friends. I love beach, right? So I want to be by the beach, I want to be by the water. And one of the things I know lots of people love Muskoka, but I don't like the dark water. It's kind of scary to me. I like the blue water and the white sand. So sandbanks in Prince Edward County, Tiny, Tiny Ontario also has the same thing. So actually, before I bought my place outside of the country, I we actually investigated trying to buy something in Tiny Ontario. Now, Tiny, I think it's their their short-term rules have become so egregious that that would not be the place that I would invest in now. But I would pick a smaller town. Maybe it's a Sauble Beach. The challenge with Sauble Beach is it's like three hours outside of Toronto. So it's really about trying to pick what's that smaller market that you can get into that isn't gonna cost too much money. But then again, it's funny. Now I've on the I've come around on the other side going, how do I get back into Toronto again? How do I assemble a bunch of people to buy a place in Toronto? I have lots of different thoughts and ideas going in my head.

Christan Bosley 10:18

Well, there's opportunity in Toronto right now, which we haven't seen in a really long time.

Davelle Morrison 10:21

Absolutely, for sure.

Christan Bosley 10:23

Okay. So I mean, I'm curious to know how you go about assembling the right people to invest.

Davelle Morrison 10:30

Well, it's I usually pick friends that I know and that I know well. So let's talk about my Prince Edward County place when we had that. I knew I had one friend who was really keen on buying something, and he was also handy. I had another girlfriend who was handy who was who was keen on buying something, and she was also another real estate agent. And then we needed to all as we went to look at the property, we're like, you know, it's gonna take a little bit more money. We need to find a fourth. And I had bought another property previously, and on my LinkedIn, one of my friends who I just hadn't seen in a while, posted, Hey, next time you're looking for investors, I might be interested. And I sort of remembered that. And so in this case, I went, Hey, you know what? Remember you posted that? Are you still interested? And he said, sure. And uh he said, send me the numbers because it is always about the numbers, right? Yeah, nobody's doing anything for the good of their health. So I sent him the numbers and he said, Yeah, I'm in. And it was great because at the time he actually owned a contracting business. So, in that, you know, partnership that I had in Prince Edward County, there were four of us. So it was kind of like the guys did the contracting work and made sure that all this stuff worked, and then the girls handled, you know, the I guess I'm gonna say the lighter stuff, making sure we had the right furniture. It was all staged, the Airbnb communications. So it was a great partnership because everybody did what their specialty is.

Christan Bosley 11:54

Well, and it sounds like everybody contributed. Yes. More importantly. Yes. Right. Absolutely. And so when you look at the financial aspect of that, because co-ownership is becoming uh a bigger thing that we see often, uh, was it an equal co-ownership or was there any sort of determination about what percentage anybody was investing?

Davelle Morrison 12:12

You know what? Everybody invested what they could, and so your percentage was determined by what you could invest.

Christan Bosley 12:18

And did you work with a very specific lawyer to outline that kind of documentation? I did. How do you save a friendship in that?

Davelle Morrison 12:25

Well, I mean, you know, you want to invest with reasonable people, right? And so you get everything down on paper in terms of the partnership, in terms of what's going to happen if somebody leaves, if somebody needs to be bought out. You know, one of the things I've started adding to some of those agreements is um if one of my partners dies, there's like an automatic we're buying you out. Because in my world, and I'm sure that probably works for a lot of investors, I'm in business with you. I'm not in business with your heirs. And it might sound cold or crass, but I don't want to be in business with your heirs because I don't know them. Yeah.

Christan Bosley 12:59

And soft and complicated.

Davelle Morrison 13:00

Yeah, exactly, right? So the idea is that there is a clause written that if you die, you know, you're automatically being bought out simply because we're not dealing with your heirs. But then I had a situation in the property that I bought outside of the country where one of my partners was dating somebody who was horrible.

Christan Bosley 13:21

And so you know this is going on the internet, right?

Davelle Morrison 13:24

That's why I'm not naming names. Okay. Anyways, needless to say, so we crafted a clause that essentially said, you know, that if there was a spouse who was a making claim on this asset, they were also to be bought out.

Christan Bosley 13:38

Okay.

Davelle Morrison 13:39

Because this is about protecting that partnership.

Christan Bosley 13:41

Right.

Davelle Morrison 13:41

Right? You're investing with the people you want to invest it with and nobody else. Okay. So that's how I've sort of refined some of those partnership agreements to make certain that, okay, if we're going to do this, we're doing this with each other and nobody else.

Christan Bosley 13:56

Right. And did you have a particular uh co-ownership lawyer that helped you through that? Or just a real regular real estate lawyer?

Davelle Morrison 14:04

Yeah, just a regular real estate lawyer. Okay. I'd take in one agreement, I can't even remember which lawyer had given it to me, and then I've kind of been able to use that and tweak that in all of the other property purchases that I that I've done.

Christan Bosley 14:15

Okay. Well, I mean, thank goodness you knew enough to do that, right? I think a lot of people get into co-ownership without any sort of agreement. It's a bit of a disaster.

Davelle Morrison 14:24

Absolutely. But you know, one of the challenges that I have, I've had sometimes in that, you know, we buy the place, we know that we're going to sign the agreement, we look at the agreement, and then the agreement doesn't get signed. Or the agreement gets signed like four years later. So I've also had that case happen as well, too, that sometimes for some reason you just can't get it going. Right. Because it's a big agreement and there's lots to look at, and you've got all partners with all lawyers looking at it. Like this is not the kind of thing where you just get one lawyer to look at. Each party has to have their own lawyer review it. Yeah. So it takes time because I find sometimes dealing with lawyers, and I know this is on the internet, they like to sort of justify and put their own stamp on things and their own wording on things to justify their existence. And so, yeah, it can be a problem sometimes.

How the Buying Process Changes when Investing Outside the GTA

Christan Bosley 15:13

I just want to note that it was DeVelle that said that and not me, but I do agree. Um, so I think you're intimately aware and well positioned to really talk about the difference between, you know, a regular consumer purchasing a resale and a group of individuals or a single individual looking to buy an investment property. So, what are the differences in due diligence and financing that you have to really consider when you're going the investment stream?

Davelle Morrison 15:40

Well, I mean, can you afford it? Of course, that's the one thing. But the main thing is cash flow.

Christan Bosley 15:46

Right.

Davelle Morrison 15:46

You know, I remember probably about, I want to say 15, maybe about 15 or so years, I had gone to one of those pre-construction condo openings. And there was a big uh agent/slash investor there, and I don't want to use his name, but he's kind of a big deal. And this is before I was an agent.

Christan Bosley 16:05

Is he really a big deal though, or does he think he's kind of a big deal?

Davelle Morrison 16:08

No, he's a big deal. Okay.

Christan Bosley 16:09

Just clarifying.

Davelle Morrison 16:10

No, he he's legitimately a big deal. Okay. And I was, you know, young and I wasn't even an agent yet. And he was trying to sell me on the idea of, yeah, you can buy this pre-construction condo, and it doesn't cash flow positive, and that's okay.

Christan Bosley 16:24

Which we see so often in Toronto, right?

Davelle Morrison 16:26

Yes, absolutely. And, you know, when I say cash flow positive, I should define what that is. Because when I say that, some people are like, what does that mean exactly? So that just means that after your mortgage costs, your maintenance fees, and your property taxes, the rent covers all of those things. Okay. So if the rent doesn't cover all of your expenses, then you're cash flow negative. Now, for a while, there was a ton of investors doing that, especially in the Toronto condo market. For a lot of those people, perhaps they're making a ton of money that they need a write-off on their income. So maybe that's why they did it. For some people, they're buying condos for their kids. And so they did it because they are thinking that their child was going to be using it later. Or especially in the Toronto condo market before, I'm gonna say before the last two years, they were just banking on the fact that this condo would appreciate so much that they thought it's fine. But that ship is sailed, and that's just no longer the way people are operating, right? And the last couple of years, a lot of my in vet condo investor clients have sold off their condos because they were not cash flow positive. And in this market, they just knew that they weren't gonna be able to get that kind of return. So for me, I've always been a big believer of I want my property to cash flow positive. Yes. That's something otherwise, what's the point? Right, exactly. And so, you know, I have a a duplex in Riverdale that I own. And luckily with that place, because I bought it such a long time ago and there's two units in there, it cash flows positive. And so the the investment really does work. And so now when I'm working with investors and the investors these days are really few and far between, you know, I say to them, Well, instead of buying a condo, could you buy a house that can be turned into two or three units? Because I feel like that's where you're going to get the more bang for your buck. Because that way you have a greater chance of it being able to cash flow positive.

Christan Bosley 18:21

Okay. And so when you're buying outside of the city, outside of the GTA, um we've talked about how you're a licensed realtor. Do you represent yourself outside of the GTA or do you have local representation?

Davelle Morrison 18:33

I have a local agent.

Christan Bosley 18:34

And why is that?

Davelle Morrison 18:35

Well, because I don't know everything about that market. I certainly know a lot about that market, like so, for example, Prince Edward County, but anytime I've done a transaction there, I've always used a local realtor.

Christan Bosley 18:45

Right.

Davelle Morrison 18:46

Because I think it's important to use a local realtor who actually knows what's going on in that market. I also think that local real other local realtors get offended when a Toronto agent goes into an outlying market. And you're not going to get the same information as that you would if you would just use somebody local to that market. There are things that Toronto agents don't know. I almost want to call it the you don't know what you don't know. And you can't look it up fast enough, right? And of course, you sometimes re run into local agents. Like so, I did find that a little bit in Prince Edward County because I knew so much about the sh the Airbnb rules, there were local agents that didn't know enough about that. So I think anytime you find an agent, it is about looking for an educated agent. So whether it's an agent in that local market or an agent who knows something about investing or an agent that knows something about short-term investment rules. So whatever it is that you're looking to do, you need to find an agent who is qualified to give you advice on the thing you want to do. So I mean, I have clients now who are in Toronto looking for a house with a basement apartment. And I say to them, listen, I've had a basement apartment in my house since 2008. So I can give you lots of tips. I know what to do. I can give you lots of really great advice because my experience, I'm living and breathing it. I'm not just going, hey, you should do this.

Christan Bosley 20:10

And I think that's critical, right? There are so many people who think that they have the skill set to go and invest in markets that they're unfamiliar with that don't have that knowledge. And then they think that maybe they're meeting somebody local that does, only to discover that maybe they're not as knowledgeable in that very specific niche that you're looking for, right? So I think doing your research is certainly the most critical.

Davelle Morrison 20:30

Yeah, absolutely.

Christan Bosley 20:31

Okay, amazing. So when you invested outside of the GTA, were there any kind of big surprises or misconceptions you had about investing in smaller markets or emerging Ontario markets?

Davelle Morrison 20:44

Um I mean, it was a small town. And I guess I can even though I grew up in the suburbs of Toronto, I guess I consider myself to be a city girl or a citywoman. And uh so yeah, it was just interesting to see how things operate in a small town. But on the same note, I was able to get to know people really quickly and really well. Like, you know, I had a bunch of my neighbors on text that I could text anytime I needed something, especially for I were in Toronto. I could ask them a question, hey, what's going on at my house? So I did find things like that really easy. We found really good property managers. You know, we've got, you know, people who gave us recommendations. And once you get connected with a really good property manager, that's really gonna help solve all of your problems because you can't be everything when the property is two hours away from where you live.

Christan Bosley 21:35

Right. So is that something you would recommend if you are investing outside of the area where you live? Yes, absolutely.

Davelle Morrison 21:42

It's important. I mean, I think the same way that you're gonna have that local agent, you're gonna have that local property manager who's also gonna be able to help you. They're gonna have trades that can help you, or they're handy themselves so they can do things for you to the property. So we'd always been lucky with getting really good property managers who will also. Super handy. So they could fix things or they knew who to call to fix something else. So that is absolutely key.

Barbados is a very different landscape! What initially drew you to consider it as an investment market

Christan Bosley 22:08

Okay. Um, this next question, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. I am like so envious. You recently invested in Barbados. I did. Yes?

Davelle Morrison 22:21

I did.

Christan Bosley 22:22

I would like to go there. Um, so needless to say, I think it's an incredibly different landscape than what we're accustomed to here. What initially drew you to consider that investment opportunity other than the beach and the blue water?

Davelle Morrison 22:34

Well, it's funny. So I my hairstylist is Bayesian. Okay. That's what they call people from Barbados.

Christan Bosley 22:40

Yes.

Davelle Morrison 22:40

And he talked to me so much about Barbados, I was like, yeah, I really want to go. I'd never been to this place. I want to go check it out. So my girlfriends and I went New Year's 2020, so before the pandemic. So we go down to Barbados, and while we're there, we, you know, meet with a real estate agent who shows us through a couple of properties, which is interesting. And then even one of my colleagues here from Bosley happened to be down there around the same time I was there. So we went out with this agent and saw some properties and just kind of got a feel for the for the market. And then, of course, COVID happened. And then I sort of changed my mind about wanting to invest in outside of the country. And then probably about a year later, one of my, the, one of the guys who was going to be investing with me said, you know what? We should put that back on the radar. And so I was like, Yeah, that's a good idea. So I reached out to one of the agents who'd helped us back then. Actually, and what's interesting is that the agent who was helping us in 2020 before the pandemic was Canadian. But during the pandemic, she decided to leave and come back to Canada. Okay. So there was a listing agent who was listing one of the properties who went to see. So I'd actually reached out to her. She was local to Barbados. So I reached out to her, it was probably either December or January 2021. We were still pretty much in lockdown here. And Barbados was going through very different phases of lockdown. So we spoke to her, told her about the kind of property that we were looking at. She said she had a bunch of clients that were looking. So she walked us through these properties via her phone on WhatsApp, on video. So, you know, we'd all like get into our phone and we'd look at the property and be like, yeah, okay, that looks interesting. We offered on one place, but they didn't even sign it back. They just said, no, forget it. And the thing about Barbados is luckily enough, because I'd been there before, I knew exactly the neighborhood I wanted to be invested in.

Christan Bosley 24:37

Okay.

Davelle Morrison 24:38

And with Barbados, it's tricky. It's not like here. Here is so easy. We've got one, you know, system. We can go on, we go online, we can look at all the properties for sale, and we get a great example of what's available in the market. In Barbados, they don't have one system. You just have to literally keep Googling and Googling and Googling. So I would literally spend hours on Google looking at all the various real estate websites to find properties for sale, which is crazy. But unfortunately, that's the way their market works.

Christan Bosley 25:08

They're not alone, by the way. We're incredibly grateful for that. Yeah.

Davelle Morrison 25:12

Absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, they are not alone. So, anyways, that's what we did. Anyway, saw some properties. I wanted this specific neighborhood. And it's funny because when my partners started to Google, they'd be like, What about this place? What about this place? I'm like, it's not in the right neighborhood. And I'm sure at this point they're probably getting frustrated with me. But I was the one who'd been there the most recent. So I really knew what I wanted. And also, we all had a mutual friend who lived in the particular neighborhood that I wanted us to invest in. Because the houses outside of this neighborhood, some of them were a lot nicer, great prices, but they just weren't in this neighborhood.

Christan Bosley 25:47

Anyway. Location, location, location. Absolutely. It's the most important part of real estate.

Davelle Morrison 25:51

Absolutely. So we're, you know, on the west coast of Barbados in this little, I guess, enclave called Sunset Crust, if people know where that is. And so we found the right property. Again, agent walks around on her phone and we're like, yeah, this looks good. This looks like the property we want. And so now we're like, hey, can because now we're in Canada and it's the pandemic, we're not flying there to take a look at it. But I'm like, can I get a home inspection done on this property? Well, again, when you invest outside of your country, you're not used to the way they do business. Well, they don't do that. So we actually had to find a structural engineer who was willing to do the to do an analysis of the property for us. And the structural and you know, a home inspection in Toronto might cost you $600. The structural engineer was like 900 US. But anyway, since we weren't worthwhile, I would expect. So we got that done, which was great. Um, you know, they took a look at the property. So we offered on the place in like February of 2021, got the deal done. In fact, you know, we put in a lowball offer. We just naturally assumed that we were gonna go back and forth and do some negotiation, as one does. But they just accepted our offer. We were like, amazing. So, because we knew the property was great, but we knew it needed work. Right. And we were comfortable doing that work too. It wasn't major work, but it needed some work. It was enough. Yeah. So, you know, we buy the property in February, we don't close on it in until October. Now, the thing about Barbados is we're told you cannot close on a property sooner than 90 days. Oh. So we figured, you know what, offer February, closing date October, that's fine. The one thing that's a little bit different about investing outside of Canada, I'm gonna say, is that the closing date doesn't mean the same thing. And so now we buy the property in October for that's closing in October, it's supposed to close at the beginning of October, and that date comes and goes, and our lawyers don't reach out to us. And so now it's like the day after our closing date, and I'm reaching out to the lawyers, going, yes, so nobody's asked us for any money. Like, what's going on? And they were like, Oh, we're still waiting for documents to be signed from England because Barbados is very British.

Christan Bosley 28:11

Right.

Davelle Morrison 28:12

And so a lot of the people who own properties are located in England. Fine. But in my mind, I'm thinking, you know, this property's closing in February. Why not send out the documents to be signed to England like in September?

Christan Bosley 28:26

Right.

Davelle Morrison 28:27

Why wait till the last minute? And the other thing about Barbados is they don't do electronic signatures the way that we do here in Toronto.

Christan Bosley 28:34

Well, it's island life.

Davelle Morrison 28:36

Yeah.

Christan Bosley 28:36

Right?

Davelle Morrison 28:37

Yeah. So it's very different. Absolutely. So, I mean, those are some of the things that, you know, the there there are hiccups sometimes with investing outside of the country because it doesn't operate the way that you do. Um, the one thing that I would be very grateful for is that people there speak English. Yeah. Because I've had friends and other investors are investing in Dominican Republic right now, or they're buying in Mexico right now. And all I can think of in my mind is like, oh my God, you're having to read through legal documents in other languages. And English, I mean, we know English, but even us reading a legal document in English isn't like a cakewalk.

Christan Bosley 29:15

No.

Davelle Morrison 29:16

It is still challenging. So if it's not your primary language, let's say you're trying to read, you know, Spanish language legal documents, like, oh my God.

Christan Bosley 29:25

So when you say you have friends investing all over the world, are you referring them?

Davelle Morrison 29:31

Uh if they ask me, they don't necessarily always ask me. Okay. So sometimes if they ask me, yes. Um, in fact, my friends and I are going to Saint Martin in January for a friend's birthday. So I was actually trying to get a referral for that because they do want to look at properties while we're there. So we're trying to uh we're trying to get that done.

Christan Bosley 29:49

Connect through leading RE. They don't have anybody there. I've already in St. Martin?

Davelle Morrison 29:53

Yeah.

Christan Bosley 29:53

Oh, well, we're gonna fix that.

Davelle Morrison 29:54

Yeah, I've already checked.

Christan Bosley 29:56

Okay. Wow. So I mean, what an interesting experience, right? So you have Toronto investing, you have surrounding Toronto investing, you have kind of rural area, now you've got abroad. So huge wealth of experience. Um, is there anything that you feel you really had to learn the hard way?

Davelle Morrison 30:16

Oh, the challenging thing with investing in Barbados has been finding the right accountant and finding the right property managers and finding the right lawyers. Okay. And so that that's been the hardest thing for sure because I am not an accountant, I am not a lawyer. And so I want to hire those things out to get expertise that I don't know. But the biggest challenge I've had is I found you have to look at what the lawyer and the accountant are doing and perhaps sometimes retool, get rid of your lawyer, hire new lawyers. And so that's probably been the hardest thing is is the professionals.

Christan Bosley 30:52

Finding some trusted experience.

Davelle Morrison 30:54

Absolutely.

Christan Bosley 30:55

Why, from my curiosity, would you need an accountant locally?

Davelle Morrison 30:59

Well, because you're basically you're, I mean, it's an Airbnb that we're running. Okay. So it is a business, we've got expenses, we've got to file taxes in that country. So, you know, the the we've got an accountant slash bookkeeper to monitor all that stuff and file taxes in Barbados. So that's the challenge.

Christan Bosley 31:17

And then File taxes. There you go.

What are the biggest mistakes investors make when buying outside major cities or in another country altogether

Davelle Morrison 31:20

Yeah, but you but even here in Canada, so my accountant actually has to oversee what my accountant in Barbados does because the CRA has requirements in terms of a specific document that you need to fill out to say that you own a property outside of the country. So I think the biggest challenge sometimes has just been everything going on in my mind. Right. And those little things that can kind of trip you up that you really need to make sure you have the right professionals who can help you. And so that's even making sure that your accountant in Toronto is good and well-versed in this.

Christan Bosley 31:54

Yeah, you're also one of the most organized people I know. So for you to be distracted by some of those small things is speaks volumes, right? So it is a very large challenge to kind of overcome before you make that commitment.

Davelle Morrison 32:06

Yeah, absolutely for sure.

Christan Bosley 32:08

Okay, amazing. And so I don't think it's a secret that you help many people invest in real estate. It is one of your niches. Um, when you see investors buying outside of major cities, what is one of the largest mistakes that people typically make?

Davelle Morrison 32:23

I think that they think that they can do it themselves. I've seen some people try to just buy direct. Oh, yeah, you know, I found a homeowner. I'm just gonna, you know, call them up and save the commission. And so that's something I've seen people do. And it kind of goes back to you don't know what you don't know. You know, people think that they can Google everything, right? Or they can chat GPT their way out of everything. But unfortunately you can't.

Christan Bosley 32:48

Chat GPT is always wrong. Just saying.

Davelle Morrison 32:51

Well, I use it a lot.

Christan Bosley 32:52

I use it a lot too, but I don't know that you can trust it for things like, you know, your short-term rental regulations in each area, right?

Davelle Morrison 33:01

Absolutely. So I think that people don't think they need other people. They think that they can do it on their own. Right. And I think that that's a big challenge. But quite frankly, I even see that in Toronto, where I'll have people say, Oh, you know, I can just go to the open house and work with the listing agent. And then I try to explain to them, you know, but that listing agent represents the seller. They don't represent you. And, you know, the best way that I have to say to people how that truly works is imagine walking into a court of law and expecting the prosecuting attorney to defend you.

Christan Bosley 33:35

Yeah.

Davelle Morrison 33:36

You just you wouldn't do it. But with real estate, people think they can do it.

Christan Bosley 33:40

It's the perfect analogy.

Davelle Morrison 33:41

Yeah. And whether they're in Toronto or outside of Toronto, they think, oh, I'll just walk into the open house and use the listing agent. And I'm like, no, you need your own agent who's got your back.

Christan Bosley 33:52

I would agree. I see that all the time.

Davelle Morrison 33:54

Yeah.

Christan Bosley 33:55

Okay. So, I mean, we've talked a little bit about rentals. What is one thing that you must understand locally about the culture or the agents or the regulations before you really choose to dive in and invest there?

Davelle Morrison 34:09

You need to understand the kind of rentals the people who are going to be renting in your place. Because Toronto is a market where you've got a lot of professionals, um, you've got a lot of uh white-collar workers. When you go outside of the GTA, the people who rent in those places are a little bit different. And so I think that's one of the things that people actually really have to understand about markets outside of the city and knowing who are the kinds of people that rent. Now, there's some people that you know buy places in, let's say, Waterloo or Kitchener, it's close to schools, so they know that they're gonna get students, and that's great. But I think that especially the landlord tenant board rules, knowing what they're like, you need to make sure that you're going to get good quality tenants. So you need to make sure that whatever you're invit in investing outside of the GTA, you can get good quality tenants. Because I think that's a thing that can trip people up.

Ontario Bill 60 Impact on Investors and Tenants

Christan Bosley 35:03

Okay, I'm gonna throw in a really random question that you're probably not prepared for, but given how much research I know you do in your day, I expect you might have a good answer for this. Okay. Uh, according to the landlord and tenant rules, uh, Ontario just passed Bill 60. Yep. Do you have any thoughts on how that's going to impact some of your investors or tenants?

Davelle Morrison 35:24

You know, I think it's really interesting with Bill 60 because I'm, you know, watching the footage on TV and I'm seeing like how people are getting in the legislature and they are like there's a lot of chaos over this thing. And I when I look at the rules, so basically what it says is that, you know, a landlord has to wait, instead, but they only had they had to they had to wait after 15 days before a tenant didn't pay rent to file eviction notices. And the new rule says they can wait after seven days. The difference between 15 and seven days isn't really that much. And so I kind of go, I don't understand why these people are spinning out of control about this.

Christan Bosley 36:02

It seems to me that people are spinning out of control because landlords, in my opinion, are getting a bit more of a fairer shake than they have historically, with things like their ability to evict to move in with a certain time period and no longer have to pay or negotiate with that tenant. There are some, you know, small but meaningful changes in that bill that to me signify more fairness to both sides rather than a very tenant-oriented.

Davelle Morrison 36:31

Absolutely. And I mean, I think there's still more to go with reopening that Residential Tenancies Act to make it a little bit more fair and balanced. Of course, I know lots of tenants would disagree with me. Um, but you know, one of the other things that's in there that I thought was interesting is that it means that if a tenant is going to the landlord tenant board rule because not rule, but if they're going to the landlord tenant board because they haven't paid rent, number one, they have to make sure that 50% of their rent is actually paid before they create, I guess, sort of another file. But it also says they can't bring up anything new at that particular session, which I think is really interesting because, you know, last year uh my colleague and I sold a house, and that house had a tenant in the basement, and our clients lived upstairs. And unfortunately, what happened is that basement tenant refused to leave. And so we actually had to sign a mutual release to let the buyers who bought the house out of the deal. I mean, tenants are one of the largest reason deals fall apart, right? Exactly. And so, you know, it's taken a year for that tenant to leave. And every single time our clients went to the landlord tenant board, she'd start to bring up new things. And so when I listen to this Bill 60, the fact that tenants cannot bring up new things, I'm like, yeah, exactly. That's the way it should be. I mean, people need to understand that for a landlord, they are literally spending the money, paying the mortgage, paying the property taxes on a property. And if a tenant doesn't pay their rent, the bank doesn't forgive that. The bank still expects that mortgage to be paid. So I think that, you know, people need to kind of understand what's truly going on with landlords. They're not the boogeyman. I mean, I am, I am also a landlord. I try to be reasonable with my tenants. Um, but people have to be reasonable. And I think that the challenge is people don't want to be reasonable and they only want to see their side. They don't want to put themselves in somebody else's shoes.

Christan Bosley 38:36

Right. And so, given some of the changes that will be meaningful, do you think that we will see more people move towards investment? Because I think that the thought of being a landlord sometimes will hold people back from that investment opportunity.

Davelle Morrison 38:50

I don't think the rules are enough to make somebody say, Hey, I wasn't thinking about it before, but I'm gonna dive in right now. I mean, to me, I think the rule changes are very mi minor, which is why I don't even understand why people are such up in arms about it. And in fact, they're so minor, I don't think that they're making any people change their minds to say, hey, I want to be a landlord now.

Christan Bosley 39:10

Right.

Davelle Morrison 39:11

So, I mean, I think that they still have a ways to go in making those rules more equitable so that more landlords want to get in the business. But I think right now a lot of people are just sitting on the sidelines.

Christan Bosley 39:23

I agree. I also think that overall people like chaos.

Davelle Morrison 39:28

Right.

Christan Bosley 39:29

So, you know, it'll settle down.

Davelle Morrison 39:32

Yeah, it it will settle down. But right now, I just like I said, when I watched on on the news about, you know, people being tossed out of the legislature and you know It's so dramatic.

Christan Bosley 39:42

Yes. Everything's so dramatic. It was like they were having Just relax.

Davelle Morrison 39:45

Yeah. They were having like temper tantrums, like they were a child. But the reality is is that if you're a tenant that pays your rent on time, none of what got passed is ever going to affect you. Right. Except for the fact where it says, you know, the landlord doesn't have to pay um the tenant after 120 days. Now that rule to me is also a bit weird. Because currently, right now, you'd have to give your tenant 60 days notice to vacate if you want to use the property for yourself or for your kids' self and pay them 30 days, uh, pay them rent. The new rule is basically saying if you give them four months notice, you don't have to pay them anything. So that to me is a bit of a weird one because I'm like, wait a second. Before the rule was essentially you were giving them three months notice. So now you're saying four months notice and you don't have to pay them anything. So that one's a little bit weird to me. But all the other rules, I'm like, it's not much of a change.

Christan Bosley 40:37

Well, and I think that that's probably what people are up in arms about because a lot of tenants will hold landlords hostage for this, right? So uh to me, I think that's one of the most positive changes.

Davelle Morrison 40:47

Absolutely, for sure.

Christan Bosley 40:49

So just circling back to investing, because obviously that's why we're here today.

Davelle Morrison 40:53

Yep.

Number one advice for investors outside the GTA

Christan Bosley 40:54

Okay. So if you were somebody looking to invest outside of Toronto with your experience, what is your kind of one piece of honest advice for them? It's all about the numbers.

Davelle Morrison 41:06

Okay. So you've got to make sure you look at the property, figure out if when you're putting your, I shouldn't say if, when you put your 20% down payment down, because that's what you have to pay for a property that you're uh turning into a real estate investment. You need to do the math and make sure that, you know, with your 20% down payment, those mortgage payments, the property taxes, and any kind of upkeep or maintenance that you think you might need when you're paying your property manager, what kind of rent can you get to cover those expenses?

Christan Bosley 41:33

And so are you putting aside a certain percentage for that property management or property? It's just I'm looking.

Davelle Morrison 41:41

No, I'm looking at the cost of how much that property manager is going to charge, but no, I'm not setting aside a specific amount for that. I just, I guess I I probably should. And, you know, if you're doing it sort of uh the textbook way to do it would also be to, you know, uh assume some sort of vacancy rate in there. Right. That's the textbook way to do it.

Christan Bosley 42:01

Okay.

Davelle Morrison 42:01

But, you know, in Ontario, in Toronto for the longest time, you haven't had to assume a vacancy rate because nothing's ever vacant. That being said, times have changed.

Christan Bosley 42:10

And so now I was gonna say I did distinctly recall a couple weeks ago in the sales meeting, you were like, for the first time ever, one of my condos is vacant.

Davelle Morrison 42:17

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So now all of a sudden it's like, oh, the vacancy thing is a real thing. Because yes, I was looking for a new tenant this summer and I did have one month vacant, and I'm like, this never happens. So yes, the textbook way of doing it is to assume a vacancy rate. So yes, we should probably go back to that textbook for a reason.

Christan Bosley 42:36

Okay, so you have mortgages, you have tax, you have maintenance, you have property management, you have vacancy.

Davelle Morrison 42:43

And insurance.

Christan Bosley 42:44

And insurance. Okay.

Davelle Morrison 42:45

Always have insurance because you need to have the property covered. Okay. So once you go through that, then you look at okay, how much money is covered by rent. And that's where, you know, having a property, and perhaps let's say you're gonna buy a house in a market outside of the GTA.

Christan Bosley 43:00

With more than one unit?

Davelle Morrison 43:01

Yes, exactly. That's what I was about to say is see if you can get a basement apartment in there. Okay. So that way now you've got two units to cover the rent. Now, one of the reasons why I do that is the idea is that I don't want all my eggs in one basket. If one tenant doesn't pay me rent, I want to make sure there's another tenant who can possibly pay me rent. And I know at least with two tenants paying me rent, the chances are pretty high I'm gonna cash flow positive and everything is gonna go smoothly. So that's the that's the um the gold standard, I should say.

Christan Bosley 43:31

Okay. I feel like I've learned so much. Cool.

Davelle Morrison 43:34

Awesome.

Christan Bosley 43:35

Also, I had no idea you had your yoga teacher's training. I'm still I'm still stuck back there. Oh yeah.

Davelle Morrison 43:42

I meditate every morning.

Closing Question

Christan Bosley 43:43

I did know that. I did know that. We share that in common. So listen, I think that we have done an exceptional job educating our consumer about how to invest, both within the GTA outside, and abroad. Um, just so you know, if you are somebody looking to invest anywhere, please don't forget to call us. Or DeVelle or anybody else, because we often refer to leading real estate companies of the world, which is our global network. And the resources there to DeVelle's, you know, point about understanding the ins and outs of the local culture and regulations are plentiful to get everybody started on the research that needs to be done. So that's kind of, you know, just me reminding you that we're here to help. But before we go, this is the favorite part of the conversation for me. Okay. I get to kind of rapid fire some questions at you. I personally am very excited about this with you as a guest because I know you will actually have some great answers for all of these questions. No pressure. Well, you know, we've had some guests on here who apparently don't read. Oh. So it's gonna be really interesting to hear what you say. Okay. Okay. Okay. Um, and I and I don't mean that in a judgment way. I mean we're all very busy. Some people listen to podcasts and some people listen to audiobooks, but I know that growth is a huge part of who you are. So I'm curious. Uh we'll start with question one. What is one lesson you've learned in your career that you wish you knew a lot earlier?

Davelle Morrison 45:08

To be courageous. Okay. Yeah, I think to be courageous that you can go for it and do it.

Christan Bosley 45:14

I told you. Her answers were gonna be great. Okay. Be courageous. What brings you joy?

Davelle Morrison 45:23

Ah, so many things. Travel, working out, dancing. Okay. Yeah.

Christan Bosley 45:30

We have dancing in common. Yes, absolutely. Are you still going to those Sunday afternoon dance parties?

Davelle Morrison 45:34

No, because it's cold now. They they have the fair weather dancer. Yeah, exactly. They haven't happened now. So now I'm like, well, maybe next summer.

Christan Bosley 45:42

Yes. I'm gonna join you.

Davelle Morrison 45:43

Okay, so it's good.

Christan Bosley 45:44

Uh you know what my favorite part about that answer was? You have balance in your life. Right. So congratulations. That's very difficult to find in real church.

Davelle Morrison 45:52

I try. It's very hard, but I try.

Christan Bosley 45:55

Yes. It's uh it's amazing how many times I ask people what brings them joy, and then they revert back to an answer that has to do with work.

Davelle Morrison 46:01

Oh, really? Yeah. Oh.

Christan Bosley 46:02

It's really fascinating to watch. Um okay, what book is on your current reading list?

Davelle Morrison 46:08

Well, I've just literally gone through uh Yacinta Ardern. She was the pre Prime Minister of New Zealand. Oh. Yeah, really interesting book. Plus, I've just listened to 107 Days, the Kamala Harris book, where she literally takes you through every single day of the campaign. So it's really interesting because it's not just a background of Kamala, it is a bird's eye view of like what every single day was bringing in the campaign. So also super interesting, interesting. And then I'm reading this book by Dr. Stacy Sims, and it's about working out menopause, uh, you know, when to eat food, when to eat at certain times, what workouts to do. Also very fascinating.

Christan Bosley 46:51

Health and wellness.

Davelle Morrison 46:52

Yes.

Christan Bosley 46:53

Yeah. Big believer in that. We share this. Yes. Okay. Um my last and favorite question. If you were to do a TED talk for us, what would the topic be? I guess it would be about real estate investing.

Davelle Morrison 47:07

Okay. Really? I mean, we I think we just did it. Yeah, exactly. We just talked about that. So I feel like it would be on real estate investing.

Christan Bosley 47:14

Okay. Yeah. So I am supposed to wrap up the podcast now because I have admittedly diverted quite significantly. Okay. But I have one more question I can't help but ask. You just referenced whether you were going to be able to afford to invest in Toronto. And I think one of the things that we perhaps have not touched on is how you can afford to invest, period, if you're an average person working an average job and an income in our city.

Davelle Morrison 47:41

Well, one of the things that I believe in is leverage. You know, the challenge is that we've all grown up being taught debt is bad, debt is bad, debt is bad. And so when I bring this up, people are like, but the reality is, is that if you own a property in the city, if you already own a house, you have a ton of equity built into that home. And so it's using that equity that you've already built up to be able to buy your next place.

Christan Bosley 48:07

It is interesting how we're taught that debt is so bad. I I certainly had the same tune growing up, except for real estate, right? Leverage equity for real estate. Right, exactly.

Davelle Morrison 48:17

And that's one of the things, I mean, over the years I've certainly read about a lot about real estate investing. And that's what you realize is that if you're going to be a real estate investor, you are going to leverage one property to buy the next. That's the whole no money down thing that we grew up with many, many years ago. It's not really no money down. You are just leveraging one property to buy the next. But that's how becoming a real estate investor is done.

Christan Bosley 48:40

Thank you so much for coming today, Javelle. I've really learned a great amount about investing.

Davelle Morrison 48:45

Beautiful. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Credits

Christan Bosley 48:48

Yeah, your insights are invaluable, and I can't wait till next time. So to everybody listening, thank you so much for your time. And it's like a buzz. Bye for now. Thanks so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who might find it valuable. We've got more conversations coming your way with incredible guests across design, finance, wellness, tech, and more. All through the lens of real estate. A special thank you to our set design sponsors, Stage Right.